Tassos Stevens is artistic director of Coney. Prior to Coney, he did a doctorate in Psychology, won the inaugural James Menzies-Kitchin Award for theatre directors, did the NT Studio Directors Course, ran the ROAR platform to support new work and new artists on the London fringe, and also worked as critic, teacher, many flavours of researcher, salesman, and chef.

We chat about pivotal moments of theatre and explore what interactive and immersive mean for theatre.

The importance of play and “making belief’ as opposed to “suspending disbelief”

How to involved audiences in agency and what Tassos advises for young people interested in theatre.

Podcast and transcript below, video above.

PODCAST INFO:

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Tassos Stevens transcript, unedited with typos likely.

Ben Yeoh (00:05): Hey, everyone. I'm super excited to be speaking with Tassos Stevens. Tassos has been making theatre and games for over 20 years and is the artistic director of Coney. He's one of the most creative and brilliant theater and play makers I know. So Tassos welcome.

Tassos Stevens (00:23): Thanks Ben. Yeah, nice to be here.

Ben Yeoh (00:25): Over 20 years or so we've collaborated on and off and most lately I've been chair of Coney for the last 10 years and have rotated off in line with good governance. And I think you were one of the first people I worked with in this collaborative centric view of theater making, as opposed to a kind of writer or director as the central nexus over how theater making or play-making should be. And if I think back over the last 20 years, you've had these two threads for want of a better word, the kind of playwright, or maybe a director as the center of theater or more collaborative or playmaking or ensemble styles of theater. I was interested in your reflections of how you've worked over the last 20 years. What's drawn you to one or all of those threads or how have they developed?

Tassos Stevens (01:21): Yeah, I guess in some ways I found myself drawn away from the idea of making plays, making script led work and more towards making the kind of play where I always can take parts or play if they choose, for example Coney. And then the very different demands of making work like that, I think also really lend themselves to something which is much more kind of collaborative because you don't know exactly what's going to happen until you have an audience to play it, you can't be sure. And there's levels of uncertainty kind of inside that and levels of areas where you don't have control necessarily as a maker, which almost by definition means kind of like a singular vision. It's just not a particularly good way of working, I think, with this kind of work and how important it is to have different perspectives to bounce off kind of inside that process, as well as being more fun where you as makers actually kind of enjoy yourself. In all the times I've enjoyed myself the most in a room it's been with other people and it's been with a sense of like, yeah, we've all a common purpose and direction that has emerged, but we're also all free to set as much [Inaudible:00:03:04] as possible to be playing with what's interesting to us and be playing together. I think to be [Inaudible:00:03:12], that's important

Ben Yeoh (03:13): You've used a few times this concept of play, but I think it's maybe a little bit of a concept worth exploring a little bit cause you've worked with the great Bernie De Koven Blue previously kind of on games and that kind of playing and also how this world of play has interacted with your theater creative making or play making. How has that evolved, I guess, over the last couple of decades, in terms of your thinking about how to make creative work?

Tassos Stevens (03:46): It's still evolving. I'm actually at the moment just reading on Kindle a book I should have read 10 years ago by Pat Kane called The Play Ethic, which is a really useful distillation, different theories of what play means. I use play as a kind of a catch-all-- Nouns are tricky, always because it's tricky to be-- Because in noun formats I think we think about kind of experiences in terms of the format, what they ask of me. [Inaudible:00:04:25], we think of going to the cinema in terms of going to go sit in big comfy seats, have some snacks The Film Kind Of Unfolds, It Happens For The Duration. You Know What's Asked Of You When Going To The Cinema And You Know What I Mean By That Noun Cinema And It Might Flex A Little Bit, But The Kind Of Play That Coney Makes, the formats are always varying. We're potentially changing everything at each point, but I found that play fills sort of the best catch and part inspired by a friend of mine, [Inaudible:00:05:10] saying [Inaudible:00:05:12] back in 2008. Yeah, it's all play ain't it. And I briefly had a website called All Play because all play was not available. Kind of like riffing off that. And I think really broadly it's defined as anything that people can take part in a play, but it's a sense of like the kind of the playing audience is more active. I think the relation between games and play in terms of kind of getting serious is super interesting.

Tassos Stevens (05:52): I think there's something certainly kind of my inspiration with any conversations with Bernie De Koven, who I often kind of dub my Jedi master and it has felt like that kind of relationship. The time that I spent with him, the exchange I had with him really sort of opened up the idea that thinking about kind of a game, thinking about it as if it's an object I'm going to hold up. [Inaudible:00:06:25] Made for me by a friend. This is like the game that we are playing. We will change the way that we play this game in order to be able to kind of keep playing well together. If we are more important in the game and that's what happens and in contrast to say yeah, in sport, professional sports, the game is kind of like the most important thing, unless it comes to life or death. So the game will not be changed, but here we were changed because ultimately our relationship and how we're playing together is the most important thing. And you have this kind of like, it gives a loose structure to the game, but then in some ways the real plays and the negotiation that happens between us as how are we going to play and what's going on in the room between us and beyond. So I think about it like that in terms of that yeah, the flexing and fluxing of the loose structure, whatever that might be, but being negotiated always by the people who are playing. I think playing philosophically is also imagining what if. It's pretending, it's making believe and I prefer making belief or performing belief rather than suspending disbelief as we would see in the theatrical sense. But always at the same time remembering what is really there and in some ways then the meaning arises between that, the what if and the what is in that respect as applying and that's true. That's true of all play, even going into the theater

Ben Yeoh (08:24): And another word in your initial answer, which seems intersectional with that is this idea of interactive. So actions have consequences for both audience and players, say all players when the audience are players. So I think it's very interesting that this interactive work with this and that it's very satisfying to see your own actions or actions where you're part of the play have those consequences, is that an important piece of your thinking and making at the moment?

Tassos Stevens (09:00): Yeah, always. I think that it's-- I mean, although, it's also important to note that there'll be different kinds of models of play and there'll be different interactive models and each one is different and it's not that one is necessarily better or worse. It's rather that each one kind of carries meaning. There is dramaturgy to the interactive structure, as much as there is to the story that it might be telling kind of inside that. So it's perfectly possible to have a piece of meaningful play where the consequences to your actions might be obscured because that's the point, but it being the point would be, yeah, what makes that meaningful? But yeah, otherwise broadly, I think that there's something of that sort of like active yeah-- the activation and the sense of agency, the perception of agency that the good play gives to people and I don't mean by perception of agency that it is necessarily like a fake perception, but that's the thing ultimately that kind of gives derive satisfaction, but as well as the potential for connection between people that good plays can spark, as well as the kind of the sense of ones-- the thing is that we're doing that we're good at or enjoy doing [Inaudible:00:10:33]. I use the term talents slightly loosely to define the things that we do, especially things that we do that we enjoy but we also might be good at and how those get reflected and discovered through play as well. I think that's a lot of what's in play and then makes something meaningful and impactful.

Ben Yeoh (10:58): Sure, yes, that sense of agency for sure. And another strand of your work and Coney's work seems to be to use the word immersive, I guess, suggesting that the audience are present in the world of play, but not necessarily in sort of the big takeover, although it could be the big takeover of a building and you create a whole new world and they're in that world, but even in a sort of smaller sense, whether it's potentially almost one-on-one play or that world, but present in this world. My reflection is that's been quite an important strand and a very fruitful strand of sort of artistic practice, both for yourself and Coney and for where actually performing arts has got to. How important is immersive or at least the [Inaudible:00:11:46].

Tassos Stevens (11:46): I would echo the kind of the little definition that you [Inaudible:00:11:53]. I think that, I mean I teach quite often and as part of sort of teaching, offer these little working definitions that I find useful or immersive and interactive. And the definition of immersive of the audiences present in the world of the play. And they might have a role in that as well. That role might also be simply as the audience that they might have actions that they do, which may have some kind of consequence for their own experience or for the overall outcome, it's going to be towards the entire activity. Those actions might also simply be those are spectating or listening and watching but they must be present in order for-- And I think it's kind of crucial for this work and also immersive has become a buzz word in terms of a particular kind of experience probably sort of imagining the Punchdrunk model of a master audience moving through in a very detailed, almost like cinematic level of realization of an environment where they might then interact with performance along the way of that. And it doesn't have to be like that because I think, I mean, also think using that definition, even as an old form of storytelling which I've also been really interested in, and I've also explored more outside of Coney until recently in a piece made out of the pandemic and brought those two things together. And with storytelling, the audience is present, and is very present for the storyteller at every point.

Ben Yeoh (13:49): You have to bring them into the world to be successful as a storyteller.

Tassos Stevens (13:52): Yeah, very often and it's quite literally that you're doing that in order to-- So yeah, I would kind of resist any idea that this is a new thing just so we're dressing it differently.

Ben Yeoh (14:09): And to maybe extend that, I mean, the word we've used in our discussions has been the experience of a play or a piece of theater, but I kind of think that when we think about immersion, yes we've, as you say, brought it to this world, but actually the immersion in a piece of creative work or the experience of that work continues really for as long as it lives in our minds and discussion, which actually in some ways, it's the fully extended piece of where emotion is and I think of work that we did 20 years ago, or some work we did on-- I come back to the pop quiz or quizzing type of work that you've done, which actually has now live with me for a very long time as a form of experience and a form of thinking about how we interact with the world. And I know you've had some reflections about when a piece of work begins, as you hear about it or think about it and where it ends, which can in some way be kind of almost never [Inaudible:00:15:10]. So far for me, some of the work that we've done hasn't ended yet, and it may not ever even be played again, but there is something to that. And I was wondering if you've been thinking about that more of late also going digital online, but this idea of it just lasts a long time with you.

Tassos Stevens (15:28): Yeah. I think it's, I mean, it's the thing-- I joke it's the thing [Inaudible:00:15:34] the same, that the experience of anything begins and ends when you stop thinking or talking about it. And also from the earliest days of Coney, we were considering breaking it down into at least three phases. You might have the play, what happens if the experience is going to the theater. What happens after the curtain rises, before it drops again and then everything that happens in advance of that-- we kind of call the events and this is the space also occupied by marketing, and then everything that happens afterwards, it's kind of called the tail, like the tail of a rabbit. And yeah, I think it's kind of true also and I think sort of the things that Coney was playing with quite early on was particularly with the events and what you can do here in terms of being able to bring an audience also, both literally to the play and as much as that, if it is happening somewhere other than a building, like how we could kind of bring people [Inaudible:00:16:51] to a secret location somewhere in the city of London, but also imaginatively and also to be ready for that and also being able to play with sense of people's anticipations and expectations and what happens here. But I think I'm becoming more and more interested with the tail and what happens afterwards.

Tassos Stevens (17:18): That's something that will happen quite organically because our memories might be triggered by going past the place where you played or you pick up a program. It's usually more around a physical tangible object or bumping into somebody. Actually one of my favorite little stories around Coney [Inaudible:00:17:43] which we made an eon ago, like 12 years ago. Sort of the first finished version was released at Battersea Arts Center and actually from a scratch phase of that, I don't know if you mind me saying, the [Inaudible:00:18:01] came to play and she was the postmistress in small town as you know Ben, but to explain to basically playing audience around 30 are the citizens of a small town, but invited by the historian of the town to recreate the most momentous week in the town's history and a very free annotation of the film, the Corbo by [Inaudible:00:18:29] aka the Raven and mimics kind of within the storyline of the film. The fact that there is somebody who signs themselves the Raven, here in this town in 1940s [Inaudible:00:18:46] France knows all the secrets of the citizens and is busy trying to destroy the town by basically writing poison pen letters, signed the Raven to circulate this and we took that and then kind of adapted it, in a nutshell I would say it's a kind of parable about the rise of fascism. Within this and in the play of it gossip was the thing that everybody in the town does and they can do that in conversation, but there's also a postal service and people write letters to each other. So Lynn Gardner, a brilliant fis critic that time of the guardian comes to play the scratch.

Tassos Stevens (19:29): She's a postmistress, she's written a secret in the advance, which is that-- I think that she killed her baby and buried his body beneath the Juniper tree and we take that, that she's going to create it and break that up into various fragments of gossip, which we then seed amongst the other citizens of the town, along with stuff around the other secrets. And then basically stirring the pot, gossip starts to rise. The Raven knows everything is trying [Inaudible:00:19:56] as well and there's a real risk that there was-- I mean, the way that it went, there was potential. If you ended up being scapegoated, you could literally be executed by the end of it with the threat that's put by a new fascist state against the town. So, anyway, lots of playfulness. Lynn plays a devil, she takes advantage of a job to basically destroy all the posts that's coming in. She opens the letters, reads them and then literally tears up and throws away anything that refers to her secrets. And also, when the suspicion kind of starts pointing her more directly, she's like, "Oh, no, no, no. That's not the postmistress, that's the school mistress," and points the finger the other way. And then the school mistress who was being played by a friend of mine, she's having to manage this to kind of escape, but it's pretty fraught for her. Two years later, my friend who was the school mistress is in the auditorium itself as well waiting for the performance to start and across the way spots Lynn Gardener and screams, "There's the witch," runs across to confront her and they have this really, I mean, joyful confrontation/reunion. And there's conversation between two strangers essentially because of a particularly vivid memory and moment.

Ben Yeoh (21:36): I think that's amazing and I think that's what is really important about your work and maybe all theater. People sense that, oh, you go to the theater and really great theater changes you and you end up different to how you started, but actually the point you're making and I think is maybe the more true one is that the change may often happen in the tail and maybe many years away from that lived in moment of experience, but actually all of these greatest data, particularly if you've been interactive or immersive, all of that, you've sown the seeds because if it's going to be a major change or a change of worldview, or even this nudge, it isn't that likely to happen in that moment of half-hour or that short reflection it might happen, but it's likely to happen in this tale of reflection, what has changed and that can happen. And in a way, in a multiplicative, more powerful than it might seem.

Tassos Stevens (22:29): Yeah, totally. Two things even from that, I think one, there's a piece that at the moment we've just presented as both a scratch, but also as a pilot study like a pilot research study in collaboration with [Inaudible:00:22:48] university, [Inaudible:00:22:49], who's also like post-doc research fellow and impact cause we'd be-- His mission now is making play to spark change and we're really kind of trying to figure out exactly what happens with that and [Inaudible:00:23:05] it's been really key in those conversations [Inaudible:00:23:09] and the magic trick is kind of like a demonstration in practice, in play of a broad strokes theory of change through play. If change happens as a result, what happens? So I would say in [Inaudible:23:27] theater is taking parts that are more likely to promote impacts. We've all been changed. [Inaudible:00:23:39] Reasons why a lot of people work in theater is because they fell in love with how it felt in taking part in theater, like when they were younger, probably school play, youth theater, community theater, kind of, et cetera. A lot of the bigger changes that I think have come through taking part in it, but anyway, you're within the magic trick, which is a performance, but also part of it-- the invitation is to help magic a small change into your life for real, and there's a combination of play and reflection facilitated that helps people for themselves conjure, slight spoiler, though the course of it, you will be surprised to discover and make for yourself a little resolution so that something that would come from reflection over what you've played to that point and a resolution that you feel could make some impact in your life. And then after that and this has been the hardest thing to kind of work on in the Arctic and figure out.

Tassos Stevens (25:02): There is a tale of communications, which happens afterwards for, maybe, I hope for a week, but it might take two to three weeks with a series of messages exchanged with players that are designed to help support them taking that action and integrating it into their life, as well as teaching some of the more sort of both playful, but also I think, importantly fun and meaningful tools for kind of reflection and change, the piece users and these are things hopefully that people pick up through just the practice of playing for the course of it, and then maybe something that sticks with them. But I think you have to sort of-- In order to help make change happen more directly, you have to really focus on how do we facilitate this? And you can still see it, it's pretty much by chance because change is going to happen. From any experience, something that I'm carrying inside myself happens.-- The play, it's like striking a rock. You strike it at the right angle and something will split open then maybe inside, if the rock is opened, maybe there'll be a little nugget of gold that takes the geological metaphor a little bit too far. But maybe not like, and it's kind of chance at the same time whether that's going to meet you at that right moment as to kind of what comes and whether it's gold or whether it's just a pretty pattern and then with the tools that we've got, everybody really enjoys the magic trick and the measures that we've got shows a positive impact on people's wellbeing. Germany is quite small, but positive based on having fun and connecting with different people. That's how usually people talk about it and then maybe later there'll be a slightly more profound change that will happen because of what has happened through the tale.

Ben Yeoh (27:09): And has there been a pivotal piece of play or theater, which maybe happened years ago and has only more recently caught up with you to spark change or maybe just something-- Yeah, yourself or even over the last 20 years, if you think back, are there some moments of theater which have really lived with you and have you now think about them differently or have changed as you've changed?

Tassos Stevens (27:36): That's a nice question. I think two things come to mind: one is a piece by improbable. I know you were saying earlier that you interviewed Lee Simpson, so maybe that's also priming that sort of-- [Inaudible:00:28:01] lane, which was, I think their first sort of piece that kind of caught itself. Certainly early in their careers and there's something, I felt like a piece of magic and it's stayed with me. Every time I see a Fox in the street, I remember that and I think that there's something I'm still kind of figuring out kind of around-- because it literally felt like magic was happening in the room and I don't mean that in elusive-- Like, oh, the magic is [Inaudible:00:28:45].

Ben Yeoh (28:45): David Copperfield or something.

Tassos Stevens (28:48): There's something-- I don't know why and then my brain is actually just kind of connecting up to-- I'm going to see a more recent and probable piece, like the Tower of Glass. They did [Inaudible:00:29:01] and then that really feeling like magic and really feeling like-- I mean, it's something where-- It was like two years ago and that was over a year after I lost my dad and feeling him very present in the room and with me as I was watching it and how for all kinds of reasons-- Anyway, so that's kind of stayed as a very specific thing from a completely different piece that I'm remembering from about a piece that actually changed my behavior. It's a beautiful piece that I experienced in Tasmania in the junction festival. I was out there making a piece for Coney. This was another piece made by an Australian artists, Thomas quirk in collaboration with local teenagers and the form of the piece-- It was called The Packed and the form of it was that you would go to a cafe in the local department store typical teenager hangout, and you'd sit on a table, one-on-one with a teenager. In my case, I would say 16 year old boy and, first of all, we don't ever talk using our voices. First of all, we communicate by passing notes and as I remember, I think on his phone, we just typed stuff up and pass and then when we're ready to play, we both put on headphones and listen simultaneously to a recorded piece by him telling a true story of when he was a few years younger.

Tassos Stevens (30:51): So maybe like 12, 13. His dad had been ill and he go to visit him every night in the hospital and his dad always said, never say goodbye because goodbye means bye for good. So only say goodbye when you know it's goodbye and then one night the boy kind of slipped and said goodbye and his dad incorrect him and then the next day his dad had passed. And as I'm telling the story, the feeling is not easy because of my own lost life a few years ago and it's extraordinary cause it's a recording, but he's present with you as you listen to it. It is a really simple, clever device. So you have that connection without the risk of him-- It would have been really hard for him as a young performer to be telling that story again and again, and again to strangers. It's a way of kind of capturing the impact while making it safe and at the end, will he make a pact? Will you make a promise to me of something? It's kind of up to you and I chose the most obvious thing and I still hold this, I never say goodbye to somebody unless I know it's for good. Always find another way of saying it.

Ben Yeoh (32:16): Wow, that's a beautiful story. I think someone told me once there were Spanish and they don't say adios in that same way because you don't want this finality. It's like hasta manana. It's like tomorrow or see you later or something with that. Gosh. Yeah, very powerful. Thinking of some of the challenges today in arts and theater making I guess I think broadly very immediately of a pandemic and response and building back better. And I also think of climate, two of our sort of biggest challenges. But if I reflect back over the last 20 years, I was trying to explain this to someone who isn't really involved in theater and they commented to me that they don't really think they've ever seen a good piece of work on climate. Maybe in the last two or three years, there's been a little bit more, but it's kind of interesting that they were suggesting that there hadn't been that much climate work or maybe climate work that they hadn't been aware of and they do seem to be particular challenges for climate across all actually industry sectors and companies because of its nature. But I'd be interested to see what you thought about the challenges of climate within theater and I can comment with challenges that I see in climate outside, because it does seem to be particularly challenging for people to grapple with the stories that are meaningful to us. Do you think that's a fair reflection or do you think maybe there's been more which hasn't perhaps surfaced as much?

Tassos Stevens (34:05): I think that's fair. I think it partly reflects the challenge of conceptualizing and making tangible the climate crisis and we are like creatures of story but in some ways, what is sort of the kind of conventional narrative theory can say, kind of hero's journey kind of as one particular model. That's kind of how we like to reflect the world and the climate crisis is almost completely antithetical to that. It's a systemic challenge for one, we're really bad at-- You're dealing with systems and also why I think-- I mean, games are really interesting in the suspect and obviously your fellow collaborator, David Finnegan, particular kind of like interests equities, and [Inaudible:00:35:13], cause games are a systemic approach, all games are systems, even if there are a subset of systems that are balanced and funds apply in a way that-- And more tangible and give us like feedback, immediate feedback. A good game will always give you that immediate feedback on how I am doing in relation to the objective, but then the climate crisis is a system, it's a hyper object and it's Timothy Morton's thing. It's too big. It's a system, it's too big for us to imagine the time span between our actions and then the kind of consequence. In some ways only right now, tragically starting to-- I think there's maybe a shift over the last two years, I've been particularly shaken by the story recently of [Inaudible:00:36:09], the small town in Canada, and what happened there and--

Ben Yeoh (36:15): You feel it more viscerally now. The systems, it's there in front of us.

Tassos Stevens (36:19): But it's starting to sort of happen but this is the kind of consequences in effect, the lack of a positive response 15, 20, 25years ago. We're always a generation behind in terms of what we're dealing with. The time delay and then also, it's so big. What can an individual do? Theater often tells stories about people or individual's particular situations because it's kind of a question of how I should act? I forgot who wrote it, one of the little books of theater and theater and politics, summed it up in terms of that question. I think it's a great question, but actually as individuals right now where we're at, the best things we can do are to try to activate towards some kind of systemic cultural, political change. That's the level of which change now needs to happen at and individual action only matters as far as it helps that cultural, political shift. So I think it's very difficult as well as the problems of obviously if you tell people to do things or you must do things to do things, there's always that.--

Ben Yeoh (37:55): Humans don't really like it. I always remember, the books I was told to read at school no matter how brilliant always kind of fall by the wayside in that same thing. And I guess that's one of my worries about this kind of build back better movement or the build back better and the arts movement. I flip flop on this, I'm currently not feeling that hopeful actually, because I'm actually seeing stuff not that different. So it hasn't shaken us up perhaps as much and we're falling back into kind of old patterns, [Inaudible:00:38:36], so I could see why that happens.

Tassos Stevens (38:39): In terms of different inequalities within the sector and systemic--?

Ben Yeoh (38:44): Well, I guess all of the old challenges that we have, whether you want to talk about inequality or diversity or funding models or funding full stop or involving people in making art seeing how a community-- Well, not even community city say how government is valuing art or not, but how the system is valuing creativity all of that. I'm currently actually feeling a little bit down because I kind of say, well, actually, I'm not seeing the system being nudged that much, even though I do think there's a grassroots kind of cool for it. It's got lost in a lot of other things and maybe it's this well-worn groove. I don't assign no particular one individual apportion blame because there's a system thing, which is always undervalued, I think, arts in this way and creativity in this way, but in the kind of build back better and there's some money and there's some things that I'd actually don't see it shifting that much differently to before and I've got one foot in, but I don't live in the world all the time. So I'm kind of hoping that I'm wrong. So maybe, the reflection would kick me out of my funk, like saying actually no it's as more hopeful or maybe catalyze it to saying, no, actually, you might be right on some things, you've got to kick some bums. I don't know. What do you think?

Tassos Stevens (40:14): I think that there is some shift that is happening, I hope some shift is happening. [Inaudible:00:40:23] I know what Coney is striving to do and we're definitely moving in the right direction. There's also still a lot of work to be done and if we're moving fast enough, I don't know. And there's other organizations moving faster and better for sure. But certainly in terms of diversity and inclusion, I think there's certainly a kind of hope, at least now a shared understanding of what is the necessary direction to travel, how far people can get along with that? I don't know. I think that there is a-- In some ways I think it's a broader question, theater will always hold itself to account and examine itself as a sector, but in some ways it's a much broader issue.

Ben Yeoh (41:28): It kind of reflects society. Theater might be a on one edge of it, but it reflects--

Tassos Stevens (41:33): Broadly.

Ben Yeoh (41:33): --Where It comes from.

Tassos Stevens (41:35): Yeah. I think one of [Inaudible:00:41:39] is certainly kind of in terms of-- instead of how freelancers have been impacted disproportionately, it's definitely true. But in some ways your society-wide solutions are also part-- whether that's a universal basic income. That feels like almost in a way the singular best solution and I've also just kind of been struck by how-- I mean, I think sort of the informal decision-making structures that happen in terms of where the next job's going to come from, which are kind of informal and invisible and therefore prone to all of the systemic biases, but I've also actually sustained-- I've kind of wondered whether it's-- The amount of people who are supported as freelancers, if you were to take all of the work and actually build a structure, which was kind of giving more stable job opportunities to support people within the kind of the system as it is and the sector as it is, actually you might find that by definition, a far smaller portion of the people who would-- You might end up employing 20% of the freelancers some more sustained support basis and the other 80% would be left out. I don't know, it feels like a lot of people-- Because of the informality [Inaudible:00:43:24] a rise, because of the invisibility of decision making structures I think more people potentially float around with hope that something will come than actually what can sector with its current level of resource? What could actually be supported? I don't know, but it makes me sort of feel that in terms of that particular dynamic that there's kind of whether incremental change from within is ever going to make the difference and whether it's the sector by itself so much as program for the whole of-- It's difficult and it's yeah.

Ben Yeoh (44:06): Well maybe turning to the last couple of questions on maybe advice and process. I was wondering, reflecting on your work, what does a good week or good day of creativity look like for you? Or you could talk, I guess-- Cause a week of theater could actually have rehearsal as well as researchers, as well as making. So, there could be a lot in that, but at its very best, what does a good creative process or day or week kind of feel like or what you aspire to like, okay, that's been some great creating work?

Tassos Stevens (44:47): The work I did for Coney is in some ways-- The creative process is a relatively small part of that. What it is in terms of running the company and the business of that and taking care of the team and checking in with people, as well as the conversations and chats with people outside the company. That all feels-- It's much bigger than what a creative process might be. Also feels really important. It's been really nice. Coney has sort of shifted a little bit instead of defining the way that we're kind of like-- Our closest-- We're a network of makers that we can assemble teams from and trying to define the inner rings of that network is going to guilt an associate in being around. And kind of an active exchange of practice and by exchanging practice everybody benefits and I feel that benefit myself in that exchange and in different conversations, different people over the course of it and hopefully that's also something that Coney will freely offer to-- I will have a virtual [coffee] with anybody who asks, if I've got time to do it. Feel that it's going to want responsibilities from being funded in the sector, but it's a mutual benefit. It should be. So that's part of it, I guess.

Ben Yeoh (46:24): Fertilizing a lot of other ideas and people being a part of that ecosystem.

Tassos Stevens (46:28): A lot of work will be made out of -- in some ways be sparked by the possibilities that particular collaborations might offer and then, yeah, and this has a lot to do with the kind of work that Coney makes cause it's not sort of often, it's only when you get a playing audience that you know what it is and a playtest is the equivalent of a rehearsal in many ways. Small town, when we made it, the first R and D week that we had at the national studio, we had a week and we opened the doors to the audience on the middle of day two and then did as many playtests as we possibly could over the course of that week. That was a rehearsal process. That was pretty joyful. But often we're kind of-- It's more devising, it's more kind of creative conversations to get people to a point where everybody can then kind of separate and go off and make the different elements and then bring them back together ready to be played again and within that and also it's to do with zoom as we're largely operating at the moment I find that doing that kind of work for no more than four hours a day. We made a piece last summer of the delegation, that was a collaboration with a Russian theater festival and Russian performers and we kind of devising and kind of rehearsing, but we didn't work more than four hours a day together. And having that breathing space to then take thoughts away, do some writing, other thinking and trying to design interactive structures that you can come back and apply. But then those four hours, the more that could be us playing and trying things out and with time later to reflect on it, that always feels like a nice process. However you can do it, spend the least amount of time talking. Otherwise, [Inaudible:00:48:57], the faster you can make something that you can play and then start to sort of-- It's always sort of sculpting according to what you learn and how that plays and everybody's having fun.

Ben Yeoh (49:14): Spend time playing. Playing, having fun

Tassos Stevens (49:18): Basically. But also, I think the fun-- The more fun we have together in the room in terms of-- And I mean genuinely and everybody feeling fulfilled and safe and able to sort of express their own kind of creative agency in that then that I think more often than not translates into quality to the work for an audience that is tangible and part of what makes it good.

Ben Yeoh (49:57): Definitely one of the things I learned from your work or particularly your work with De Koven, that is actually fun as a huge basis. Not maybe quite as how we thought of fun when we were five or six, although there's elements of it, but what actually fun really means and central to the creative process. Great. So maybe the last question would be what advice or thoughts might you have to young creatives or theater makers, or maybe not so young, just theater makers or creatives in general, people setting out on their journeys or resetting out as we emerge from this period?

Tassos Stevens (50:38): Yeah, I think that it depends on how you want to formulate this. Considering that your career will be a portfolio of different bits of work or resisting anything, which means that you end up identifying and defining yourself by something. So, I can only be an actor if I'm acting, I can only be a director if I'm directing. It's a really hard place to kind of get out of if you fall into that and I think being able to have kind of a portfolio and inside that definitely having space for this is work that I make for myself, whether it's collaborating with anybody else or not, but yeah, doing it. Even if it's your one tiny thing that you do for 10 minutes every month, but that this is just mine, I think that's really important to have that space, but also to-- I was supported for a while, I attempt as a medical secretary and it wasn't that that job gave me anything specifically that fed into the work, but it gave me space and what our sidelines are and our side hustles, I think are kind of actually really important, also like value and so that we're not defining in that way. And the great thing about doing things, having a little bit of space where you're making something for yourself is that you hopefully cut something away from that and I feel lucky that I managed largely dodged by kind of realizing I didn't want to be a theater director. Directing plays was also the sense in which each job becomes-- If every job becomes the opportunity to get the next job and you're always looking to go to please somebody else in everything that you do, I think that can lead to like kind of really difficult, l trajectories and also potentially a sense of competition where actually everybody that you know who's in this field as well should be friends and collaborators. That's definitely the best way to approach it and everybody's successful work by one--

Tassos Stevens (53:20): I think success is made by scenes and work is made by more of a scene than it is by any individuals and then I think the other-- Maybe this is even the biggest thing, it's just being able to kind of constantly be reflecting in your own practice and what is distinctive about what I do, where does what I do fits into to the bigger kind of ecosystem and how do I distinguish my work from other people's in terms of why I'm most interested and what am I most specialized in. I remember years ago having an argument in the [Inaudible:00:54:04], and then I was quite rude to him because he'd written some articles that were to be honest a bit offensive but we had a good argument and then he was coming out a meeting, like let's continue and then ended up talking about what was very early Coney at that point for about three hours and really exciting conversation, really challenging. But he didn't really understand much other than what I was saying, but really was very smart, [Inaudible:00:54:38] kind of beautifully and we kind of left with, okay, there's nothing really directly here between the [Inaudible:00:54:45] Coney and the globe, but it's been a great conversation and I'm leaving and I'm like s**t, at least I used to be a player and I do genuinely really love Shakespeare and [Inaudible:00:54:58] and I love the globe. So I was like, Oh yeah, sorry. I should also sort of say I'm also interested 1in this and he said something which at the time felt really crushing, but actually I think it's one of the best things anybody ever gave me.

Tassos Stevens (55:11): He said, "I meet hundreds of people a month, literally, who are interested in directing. You're the first person I've met that is interested in doing the thing that you spend three hours telling me about, I reckon you should stick with that." And I was like uhhh, but actually, it took a little bit. It's one of the best [Inaudible:00:55:35] give. What's distinctive? How do you distinguish yourself? And that's an ongoing reflection. My answer to that question now is different and more specific in a way than it was--

Ben Yeoh (55:51): Has evolved. Yeah. That seems a really good reflection to have, what's unique about your own practice or how it's evolving and therefore polishing up that and maybe if you've got a decision, you go with your uniqueness as opposed to that powerful or rut, well-traveled.

Tassos Stevens (56:13): Yeah.

Ben Yeoh (56:14): Great. Well, I think that's an excellent thought to end on. So Tassos, thank you very much.